| Did the Borg die in Endgame? |
| Yes |
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41% |
[ 31 ] |
| No |
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29% |
[ 22 ] |
| Maybe-It wasn't made clear |
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29% |
[ 22 ] |
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| Total Votes : 75 |
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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 Wed Aug 23, 2006 1:52 pm Did the Borg survive Endgame? |
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This debate started in a topic that was about the new Star Trek Movie. I felt it was...not right that we all deviated from the topic. Let us continue the interesting debate here.
As I said, Memory Alpha says that it was left ambiguous. The episode left it open as well. Can anyone provide proof in the episode that says other wise?
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Lord Borg
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 27 May 2003
Posts: 11214
Location: Vulcan Capital City, Vulcan
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| Wed Aug 23, 2006 4:37 pm |
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Like you said, the people of MA studied the episode of "Endgame" and then mentioned that it was never said if the Borg were totally destroyed or not. I can't belive after all the Borg did and went though somethng Janeway did killed Trillions of drones. MA also points out the Unicomplex seen in "Dark Frontier" was not shown
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teya
Commander
Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 423
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| Wed Aug 23, 2006 5:12 pm |
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It was left ambiguous, so you could go either way.
Personally, I think Janeway did a lot of damage with the neurolytic pathogen, and the Collective is severely weakened but not destroyed.
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Admiral Daniël
Dutch Admiral
Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Posts: 2177
Location: Borg Cube 31572 - Join us now!
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| Wed Aug 23, 2006 5:20 pm |
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I think that the Borg only lossed their transwarp hub and the Unicomplex. I think about 35% destroyed, cause there are many other Borg stations across the Delta Quadrant.
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IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
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| Wed Aug 23, 2006 5:33 pm |
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Yes, I think they should have all been destroyed based on what was said and known. However, as I said before, it wouldn't be at all surprising if Trek attempted to use them again.
-------signature-------
"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
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Admiral Daniël
Dutch Admiral
Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Posts: 2177
Location: Borg Cube 31572 - Join us now!
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| Wed Aug 23, 2006 5:34 pm |
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| IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | Yes, I think they should have all been destroyed based on what was said and known. However, as I said before, it wouldn't be at all surprising if Trek attempted to use them again. |
Why wouldn't they, they are the perfect villains
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Lord Borg
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 27 May 2003
Posts: 11214
Location: Vulcan Capital City, Vulcan
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| Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:16 pm |
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| IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | Yes, I think they should have all been destroyed based on what was said and known. However, as I said before, it wouldn't be at all surprising if Trek attempted to use them again. |
That's the thing based on what was said and known, it was never said "The entire collective was destroyed" In trek if they don't come right out and say something like that, you cannot assume it, then get mad if its contradicted, that still tends to happen though, hence the failure of ENT and Nemesis, but thats another story.
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IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
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| Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:50 pm |
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Indeed. That's why I included the last sentence.
-------signature-------
"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Thu Aug 24, 2006 3:13 am |
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| Lord Borg wrote: | | MA also points out the Unicomplex seen in "Dark Frontier" was not shown |
Oh, now that's just ridiculous. Just because they didn't show the one and favorite clip that is shown over and over again to represent the Borg Unicomplex doesn't mean it's not the same one. I just went through Dark Frontier pt II, and didn't see the same shot we're all used to seeing, but that implies nothing. For an episode like that, which deals right in the heart of the unicomplex and so close to the Borg, you don't want want to show the same old material. That's used for other episodes when they're not the MAIN focus...
In Dark Frontier, they showed "more" of the unicomplex. They used a little bit more money in making the complex. It just makes sense to me...in the mind of film and such.
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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Lord Borg
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 27 May 2003
Posts: 11214
Location: Vulcan Capital City, Vulcan
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| Thu Aug 24, 2006 3:24 am |
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It was a differnt Location...., you can see differnces in the place if you look at it.
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Admiral Daniël
Dutch Admiral
Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Posts: 2177
Location: Borg Cube 31572 - Join us now!
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| Thu Aug 24, 2006 3:28 am |
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This is really a question, are you a freaking Voyager fan or do you go for the Borg, if you read opinions of some people...
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lionhead
Rear Admiral
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 4020
Location: The Delta Quadrant (or not...)
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| Thu Aug 24, 2006 4:52 am |
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1.Seven of nine said there where only 6 Transwarp hubs in the galaxy. 1 is destroyed so at least 5 still remain.
2.The Unicomplex might be destroyed but we don't know ts purpose, could be one of many or hold no significance. as yuo all know nothing in the borg space has a central operating unit, os i guess the Whole borg collective doesn'twork on something like that either.
3. The borg queen might have been killed but she came bck after being destroyed in the battle at Wolf 359(she claimed) and First Contact(where she was definitly destroyed). Mayne speculations about the borg queen, we can only guess but i'm 95% sure she still exists.
4. Maybe trillions of Drones died, maybe millions of cubes maybe thoudsands of planets are now dead, or maybe jus t a few hundred drones died. Who know? But also fro that i'm 95% sure there are amny, many borg drones left, immediately starting to conquer species again.
5. I'm 50% sure the borg could get at full strength again, even though they rae at war with Species 8472
6. In Star Trek: Generations Admiral Janeway mentions the borg, that leaves me to the conclusion that they are still alive.
-------signature-------
Never explain comedy or satire or the ironic comment. Those who get it, get it. Those who don't, never will. -Michael Moore
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Thu Aug 24, 2006 7:14 am |
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Uh...for clarification Lionhead, Admiral Janeway was in Star Trek Nemesis, not Generations. Also, she didn't really say the Borg were alive or dead. She just joked about how Picard gets all the "easy" assignments. She could be refering to the PAST when Picard faced them.
Although, I do agree on the rest of your points. People keep saying that the episode clearly states they Borg are destroyed. Anyone want to give me a quote?
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lionhead
Rear Admiral
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 4020
Location: The Delta Quadrant (or not...)
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| Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:18 am |
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Right, Nemesis.
Oh and what i meant was that since she actually brought them up leaves me to think that they are still alive, since they still do talk about them.
-------signature-------
Never explain comedy or satire or the ironic comment. Those who get it, get it. Those who don't, never will. -Michael Moore
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Admiral Daniël
Dutch Admiral
Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Posts: 2177
Location: Borg Cube 31572 - Join us now!
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| Fri Aug 25, 2006 7:00 pm |
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Proof the Queen can still be alive!
| Wikipedia which is a good source! wrote: | | Given the high technical sophistication of the Borg and her apparent destruction on numerous occasions, the Borg Queen may be some sort of unique multidimensional creature who can be in many places and times at once and/or is multiply-redundant; this is also consistent with the Borg's highly decentralized nature. |
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IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
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| Fri Aug 25, 2006 8:36 pm |
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Multidimenstional creature? That's just stupid. Them simply having a copy of her DNA and making a clone is much more likely. And yeah, Wikipedia is a joke. Anybody can write an article and post it, as your quote proves.
-------signature-------
"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
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Lynx
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
Location: The Lynx Empire
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| Fri Aug 25, 2006 11:48 pm |
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I hope not.
They were dead and gone since the later episodes of TNG. It wouldn't be any good to bring them back.
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Admiral Daniël
Dutch Admiral
Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Posts: 2177
Location: Borg Cube 31572 - Join us now!
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| Sat Aug 26, 2006 7:58 am |
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You are just Naief. Only believe your own truth.
And Lynx bringing the Borg back would be the smartest thing ever, they are the greatest villains ever.
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JupiterPrime
Lieutenant
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 208
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| Sat Aug 26, 2006 9:29 am |
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no they're not - at this point they are completley predicatble and boring - hell even the ENTERPRISE crew trashed them 250 years in the past.
THe borg got more and more wussed with each new encounter
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Mon Aug 28, 2006 1:48 am |
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| Founder wrote: | Also, she didn't really say the Borg were alive or dead. She just joked about how Picard gets all the "easy" assignments. She could be refering to the PAST when Picard faced them.
Although, I do agree on the rest of your points. People keep saying that the episode clearly states they Borg are destroyed. Anyone want to give me a quote? |
Of course she was just "joking." She was talking about all his encounters with the Borg. Like FC, and Best of Both Worlds, Hugh, etc.
And no quote is necessary. Common sense and deductive reasoning...
| Lord Borg wrote: | | It was a differnt Location...., you can see differnces in the place if you look at it. |
I see definitely how you can come to that conclusion. But in Dark Frontier they put more effort into the look of the unicomplex. Of course they're going to make it look better. More time was spent on the look of the complex in Dark Frontier than was seen every other time on Voyager. Doesn't mean it's different. And I don't believe it's different...
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Mon Aug 28, 2006 2:07 am |
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| Voyager2004 wrote: | | Founder wrote: | Also, she didn't really say the Borg were alive or dead. She just joked about how Picard gets all the "easy" assignments. She could be refering to the PAST when Picard faced them.
Although, I do agree on the rest of your points. People keep saying that the episode clearly states they Borg are destroyed. Anyone want to give me a quote? |
Of course she was just "joking." She was talking about all his encounters with the Borg. Like FC, and Best of Both Worlds, Hugh, etc.
And no quote is necessary. Common sense and deductive reasoning... |
Wow that is getting old. Common sense and deductive reasoning say the Borg are still alive, not dead. I gave a myriad of stuff showing they were probably alive, but you can't show me how they're dead. You keep on insulting people saying we have no common sense. Again, WHERE is it shown? If it's so glaringly obvious, surely you can show me something.
Saying no quote is necessary shows you don't have an answer. To be honest, the VOY fans that say the Borg are dead are just Janeway worshippers or VOY worshippers and like the idea of one of those two wiping out one of the greatest enemy to the Federation.
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Mon Aug 28, 2006 2:31 am |
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| Founder wrote: | | Voyager2004 wrote: | | Founder wrote: | Also, she didn't really say the Borg were alive or dead. She just joked about how Picard gets all the "easy" assignments. She could be refering to the PAST when Picard faced them.
Although, I do agree on the rest of your points. People keep saying that the episode clearly states they Borg are destroyed. Anyone want to give me a quote? |
Of course she was just "joking." She was talking about all his encounters with the Borg. Like FC, and Best of Both Worlds, Hugh, etc.
And no quote is necessary. Common sense and deductive reasoning... |
Wow that is getting old. Common sense and deductive reasoning say the Borg are still alive, not dead. I gave a myriad of stuff showing they were probably alive, but you can't show me how they're dead. You keep on insulting people saying we have no common sense. Again, WHERE is it shown? If it's so glaringly obvious, surely you can show me something.
Saying no quote is necessary shows you don't have an answer. To be honest, the VOY fans that say the Borg are dead are just Janeway worshippers or VOY worshippers and like the idea of one of those two wiping out one of the greatest enemy to the Federation. |
OOh, Ouch...didn't think that I was saying nobody had common sense. That totally wasn't my plan...my bad...
I don't see how they're NOT dead...I mean, the virus would spread through the collective no matter what, even if some random drone had assimilated Janeway. But it was assimilated by the queen herself. I mean, she's in control of the central Plexus at her unicomplex. So it basically, just travelled straight from her to the rest of the collective. I mean, it just makes sense that's what happened.
Yes, I won't deny that you've shown some evidence supporting the latter, but I just don't buy it. It's not because I'm a Voyager fan or a Janeway worshipper, or because I hate the Borg. I mean, Wikipedia can write whatever they want, but they don't know jack about Trek...I mean, come on...The queen is definitely no multi-dimensional being, as they put it.
But the truth of the matter is, until Trek actually comes out with something about the subject, we'll never know and we'll continue having this discussion. LOL...
| lionhead wrote: | 3. The borg queen might have been killed but she came bck after being destroyed in the battle at Wolf 359(she claimed) and First Contact(where she was definitly destroyed). Mayne speculations about the borg queen, we can only guess but i'm 95% sure she still exists.
4. Maybe trillions of Drones died, maybe millions of cubes maybe thoudsands of planets are now dead, or maybe jus t a few hundred drones died. Who know? But also fro that i'm 95% sure there are amny, many borg drones left, immediately starting to conquer species again. |
and did you know that 95% of all percentages are made up off the top of people's heads? 
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Mon Aug 28, 2006 3:18 am |
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Oh I agree that Wikipedia isn't right on the matter. My proof however was Memory Alpha, which tries to accept only canon information.
I'm not saying that without a doubt, 100%, the Borg are alive. My point is that you and some others keep saying it's PAINFULLY obvious. But if that was that case...why are we debating it?
BTW? I'm not a Borg fan. HUGE Dominion fan here. So it isn't that I'm ignoring reason or anything. I would gladly switch sides if I was given proof. All the episode said to me was that it would destroy the Queen and that Hub. Janeway even kept saying over and over that she wanted to destroy the Hub and get VOY home.
"There has to be a way we can make our cake and have it too." -something like that.
She wanted to destroy the hub, that was her objective. If destroying the entire collective was the objective, you would think something as important as that would be said out loud. That's like DS9 making an episode where they won the war and kind of...hinted at it by showing the Dominion fleet blowing up and saying absolutely nothing afterwards about the Dominion or the war.
Destroying the Borg, Star Trek's arguably greatest villian deserves to be either A) shown or B) at the very least MENTIONED. Just a quick line!
"We did it! We destroyed the Borg Collective!"
Or
"If the pathogen spreads fast enough, we'll have destroyed the entire collective..."
ANYTHING. But they said nothing at all. The most they kept talking about was destroying the hub. If they destroyed the Borg (and im admitted it's possibility) and said NOTHING about it(they didnt), then that is yet again a huge failing on VOY's part.
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Mon Aug 28, 2006 3:53 am |
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| Founder wrote: |
BTW? I'm not a Borg fan. HUGE Dominion fan here. So it isn't that I'm ignoring reason or anything. I would gladly switch sides if I was given proof. All the episode said to me was that it would destroy the Queen and that Hub. Janeway even kept saying over and over that she wanted to destroy the Hub and get VOY home.
"There has to be a way we can make our cake and have it too." -something like that.
"There's got to be a way to have our cake and eat it too." That's what is said.
She wanted to destroy the hub, that was her objective. If destroying the entire collective was the objective, you would think something as important as that would be said out loud. That's like DS9 making an episode where they won the war and kind of...hinted at it by showing the Dominion fleet blowing up and saying absolutely nothing afterwards about the Dominion or the war.
Yes, that was their objective. And I agree that anything more would have been said out loud. But what I got from the episode, was that they wanted to take down the hub. And when Admiral Janeway said there is a way, but I considered it too risky. Now, that says to me, since I'm going to be going and doing this plan, why take down just the hub when we can take them all down.
Destroying the Borg, Star Trek's arguably greatest villian deserves to be either A) shown or B) at the very least MENTIONED. Just a quick line!
"We did it! We destroyed the Borg Collective!"
Or
"If the pathogen spreads fast enough, we'll have destroyed the entire collective..."
ANYTHING. But they said nothing at all. The most they kept talking about was destroying the hub. If they destroyed the Borg (and im admitted it's possibility) and said NOTHING about it(they didnt), then that is yet again a huge failing on VOY's part.
I understand TOTALLY what you're saying now. About just having at least one simple line. Now, why completely sacrifice Admiral Janeway to JUST take out the hub and get Voyager home. She knows she's gonna be assimilated no matter what, so why not take on the entire collective at once? So they do the Virus. Now, yes, the main focus is the hub and getting Voyager home. That's ALL that was verbally said. Now, there's a hidden message there, I think at least, that I picked up on. But, becuase you're right about verbally telling us, they probably decided not to say it because Trek ITSELF doesn't even know if they want to destroy the Borg or not. They did it in such a way that if they wanted them done for good, they could, or if they wanted them just so weak and then focus on their "rebirth" later, they could do that as well. It gives Trek that cushion that they want so they can play around with things a little. |
Now that's just my opinion. But now that I understand Founder's POV, I agree. Now, I still personally say that the Borg are done for, but having now realized what Founder is saying, I just understand where he's coming from. But I do completely believe too that Trek just left that door cracked so they could have a cushion for the time being with the Borg to decide what they want to do. Just like they did with TNG. Now, granted, we pretty much know that TNG is done for, but IF they wanted to do another movie, they could.
I think that's what Trek was going for with the Borg here. If they wanted them back, they're back, otherwise, they can later come back and say "nope, they're gone."
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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Admiral Daniël
Dutch Admiral
Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Posts: 2177
Location: Borg Cube 31572 - Join us now!
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| Mon Aug 28, 2006 4:43 am |
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| Voyager2004 wrote: | | ... why take down just the hub when we can take them all down. |
They only wanted to destroy the hub so the Borg were not able to get to the Alpha Quadrant that fast.
-------signature-------
We are the Borg
You will be assimilated
Your Technological and Biological distinctiveness will be added to ours.
Resistance is Futile
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"Resistance is and always will be FUTILE"
-Locutus, Star Trek Armada.
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